Comments on: A Different Understanding of Scripture

By: Wendy Mitsui

Wendy Mitsui — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:37:49 +0000

Yes, God is Love and much more too. I will think of thee in meeting tomorrow. Greenwich Friends Meeting Greenwich, NJ

By: James Riemermann

James Riemermann — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:02:12 +0000

Thanks for your good wishes, Wendy. The same to you.

I, on the other hand, am something of a pragmatist. Beyond that, if a truth is beyond human understanding, it is most certainly beyond me, as I am all too human.

I have certainly known love, and if all you mean by God is love, then in that sense I know God. But to me, the word God means much more than that.

james

By: Wendy Mitsui

Wendy Mitsui — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:43:11 +0000

You will know when you experience God, though I suspect you have already done so.
Do not be afraid to change. I am not the pragmatist you may think. I as you draw on my I do hope you continue seek spiritual
truths that are beyond human understanding.
We have but a glimmer of God’s will during our lives. As my father spoke to his children each evening “God is. God wills Trust in God, Amen”. He had to quit teaching Biology after he had a stroke and had to speak simply to us because of aphasia. So you see, I understand science and was raised in the Society of Friends after he and my mother became a convinced Friends. God is Love…if you have known love, then you have experienced God. Blessings to you and your Meeting. May you journey be good.

By: James Riemermann

James Riemermann — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 17:35:07 +0000

Yes, I am saying the light is not God, though it is real and precious and to be heeded. I fully accept that is an non-traditional view for Friends, and understandably there are those who are troubled hearing such views expressed by Friends. Yet from what I’ve seen of the Religious Society of Friends, I think we’re strong enough and open enough to hear it fully and see what if anything comes of it. I think those of many views can hear each other and occasionally find themselves changed by what they hear and feel. I know I have been changed by Friends who see things differently from me.

You call attention to the word “Religious” in “Religious Society of Friends” as if religion is not possible without theism. That is clearly not the case, as there are many world religions where God is not central, or even a consideration.

I am open to everything that I experience, everything I hear from others. So far, I have not gotten a glimmer that the creator of the universe is at the center of what we do, though that “God” word is the way most of us describe it. My views might change, but I’m not expecting it, or worrying about it. It is real and true and precious whether it comes from God or not. This I know experimentally.

By: Wendy Mitsui

Wendy Mitsui — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:46:33 +0000

So are you saying the Light is not God.
Is not Religious Society indicative of “linking back”?
So, the linking back to the inspirations of Fox is
part of Friends Religion. If only our present
thinking is the basis of truth, then why are you
drawn to the Religious Society, as a Social
Club or as a Religious Society based on Christian faith with the willingness to seek that of God that exists in each of us. There atheist societies, philosophy societies etc. Why do theists chose to be Friends? It is that of God in each of us that we seek out and which sustains us as a Religious Society. If this is lost then as stated before we are a great charitible family, a social club, a wonderful gathering of humanity but not a Religious Society of Friends. I say perhaps you have found God amongst Friends no matter how it is described. Is there a glimmer of possibility that this could be a Truth for thee.
And perhaps it is that of God that keeps you with Friends. So why not seek God in all we say and do? For a month or a year…see what happens. Lovingly, Wendy

By: James Riemermann

James Riemermann — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 15:52:43 +0000

Wendy,

You say that those who have not recognized God in their lives are seekers. True. Is this any less true of those who *have* recognized God? Does transformation have to come in the direction of me becoming more like you? Is it not possible that there are things others see that you do not?

Fox is relevant but he is no longer alive. He never claimed to be the source of the light, or the one who would determine the direction of Friends forever. He claimed the light is in each of us.

By: Wendy Mitsui

Wendy Mitsui — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 15:39:14 +0000

Friends Meetings often feel comfortable faith communities because of our lack of regimented doctrine and creed. Those who have not yet recognized God in their lives are seekers. What
would happen if the existence of God daily in all Friends lives. Have the beliefs and experiences
of George Fox and early Friends become irrelevant? When a Meeting is no longer seeking God it is a wonderful Social Club more often than a Religious Society. God brings power of change to us that is beyond human capability and if we believe or not ,God continues to exist. God is Love, so if you have found the Religious Society of Friends a loving and nurturing faith then we have found God is present there.
I would challenge non-theist Friends to relinguish to God and see what God can do. It really is wonderful,but perhaps you know this with different words.
The is that of God in each of us.

By: Marie Hancoski-Stornelli

Marie Hancoski-Stornelli — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 01:13:44 +0000

I consider myself aQuaker because my “values” are in sync with theirs more than any other reli.gion I can think of. I was born a Roman Catholic and am completely recovered. I first came into contact with Quakers during theVietnam war when my son was a conscientious objector and received counseling from the Quaker church. He subsequently became a medic during that war and vowed notto killanyone. I do go tothe Quaker Church nearest to me once in a while, but it is not convenient. I have spent a lot of time studying religions and have only been more confused about all the different concepts of God. Joseph Campbell. said in one of his lectures on the meaning of myths that the word, God, was merely a symbol for the idea of the Creator. I find it very interesting that Quakers are so broad-minded as to speak of a non-theist Quaker, especially as some of my agnostic friends are such wonderful human beings

By: James Riemermann

James Riemermann — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 04:16:53 +0000

Daniel, I’m glad that we see more eye-to-eye than we initially thought. I certainly take Jesus’s teachings–along with a great many other great spiritual leaders and teachers–very seriously as teachings. It’s just, the literature that shakes me to my core usually doesn’t do so by being morally instructive.

Nate, thanks for your kind words. Ozymandias is a great one, puts it all in perspective. As Ecclesiastes put it: All is vanity and a striving after wind.

By: Nate Swift

Nate Swift — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:01:47 +0000

I know what you mean. I was just in a class where “Ozymandias” illustrated the lesson far better than anything we were reading. Mellville? Oh yes indeed!
By the way, I REALLY like your sentence in your comment: ” The essential part, I think, is the work itself, not the terms in which we frame it.”
In His Love,
Nate

By: Daniel Wilcox

Daniel Wilcox — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:00:54 +0000

Dear James,

I completely agree with your last post!

Indeed, that was the very point of my previous posts, but I guess I wasn’t clear.

You believe in committing “ourselves to loving and caring for each other.” So do I. So should all people.

However, most humans don’t. They care for their own group, but not humankind, certainly
not their enemies.

If there is no universal truth, then how can you “speak to the condition of most humans who don’t “commit themselves to loving and caring” but instead use violence to acheive their ends?

That is why I gave you the examples I did. I used to live in Palestine/Israel. People there of all persuasions certainly care for their own group, but they attack others. Reflect on Gaza!

They don’t take Jesus’ message to heart to love others, even enemies.

I knew nice Palestinians and nice Jews but they were perfectly willing to kill each other because of a piece of land. They are much worse about territory than the cats in my neighborhood.

Thanks for being concerned about Friendly ethics.

In the Light,

Daniel

By: James Riemermann

James Riemermann — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:42:48 +0000

I disagree. In fact I think the hard, frightening, real world we live in gives us all the more reason to commit ourselves to loving and caring for each other, of binding ourselves to one another as Friends. We have it in us not to make the world other than it is, but to bring out the best part of ourselves. I think we can best do this work in full knowledge of what we’re up against.

I understand this work has traditionally been framed in theistic terms, and for most Friends it still is. The essential part, I think, is the work itself, not the terms in which we frame it.

By: Daniel Wilcox

Daniel Wilcox — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:31:44 +0000

Hey James,

I just read your comments about Scripture.

Your paragraph here:
“The birds of the air Jesus speaks of may be arrayed better than Solomon in all his glory, but a great many of them starve before they give birth, or are eaten alive by other birds of the air. This is how life is shaped, sayeth the scripture of Darwin. The plumage of the birds of the air is lovely because it is tinctured with blood.”

That is exactly what I was trying to explain to you in my long-winded response a few moments ago on the other thread.

Nature as IS isn’t reconciable with the central tenets and testimonies of Friends.

And human nature! It could get you crucified,
or executed as happened to Tom Fox,
yet he chose not the way of nature, but
of Christ’s “loving your enemies.’

My cat doesn’t see life this way;-)
Neither do most non-Friends I know. A number of them–nice people–want to nuke Iran, etc.
kill ‘em all as we did to Dresden in WW2 and the cities of Japan where over 300,000 civilians died from our intentional acts of terror.

Now, after writing too much, I do think it is time for me to go into silence for a while.

But I will listen if you wish to reconcile your above paragraph with Friends testmonies and worship.