Comments on: Reflections on a Decade of Nontheism Workshops http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/ For Quakers and others interested in nontheism among Friends (Quakers) Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:02:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Robin Alpern http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7182 Robin Alpern Sun, 08 Apr 2007 19:38:51 +0000 http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7182 Dear Richard, Thank you for the excellent questions. They deserve a lot of discussion. For the moment, I will say simply that, in my view, organized religion has conflated belief in God with our innate craving to feel connected with the universe. Nothing (except perhaps the Church) says that you have to believe in God to enjoy stillness or to know the wisdom of reflecting deeply and openly in hopes of receiving fresh perspective, courage or upliftment. You don't have to believe in God to revere life, to love community, to believe in working out differences peaceably. I very much appreciate your curiosity. Wondering about one another's journey is an important way for all of us to move forward. You might like to read an essay I wrote that directly addresses some of your questions; it's called <a href="/article/why-not-join-the-unitarians/" rel="nofollow">Why Not Join the Unitarians?</a> and is posted under "Formal Essays" on this website. Also on the website under "Books" you can find info about "Godless for God's Sake: Nontheism in Contemporary Quakerism" in which 27 nontheistic Friends have done their best to speak to some of the issues you raise. I do hope, Richard, that some of these writings or your further conversations with Friends will help clear up your puzzlement. One reason I wrote the report to which you've replied is to emphasize that nontheists are not some kind of interloper, but an integral, contributing part of the Religious Society of Friends. The more all of us appreciate and welcome each other here, the more blessed our community. Love, Robin Dear Richard,

Thank you for the excellent questions. They deserve a lot of discussion.

For the moment, I will say simply that, in my view, organized religion has conflated belief in God with our innate craving to feel connected with the universe. Nothing (except perhaps the Church) says that you have to believe in God to enjoy stillness or to know the wisdom of reflecting deeply and openly in hopes of receiving fresh perspective, courage or upliftment. You don’t have to believe in God to revere life, to love community, to believe in working out differences peaceably.

I very much appreciate your curiosity. Wondering about one another’s journey is an important way for all of us to move forward. You might like to read an essay I wrote that directly addresses some of your questions; it’s called Why Not Join the Unitarians? and is posted under “Formal Essays” on this website. Also on the website under “Books” you can find info about “Godless for God’s Sake: Nontheism in Contemporary Quakerism” in which 27 nontheistic Friends have done their best to speak to some of the issues you raise.

I do hope, Richard, that some of these writings or your further conversations with Friends will help clear up your puzzlement. One reason I wrote the report to which you’ve replied is to emphasize that nontheists are not some kind of interloper, but an integral, contributing part of the Religious Society of Friends. The more all of us appreciate and welcome each other here, the more blessed our community.

Love,
Robin

]]> By: Robin Alpern http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7180 Robin Alpern Sun, 08 Apr 2007 18:55:52 +0000 http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7180 Dear Liz, Yes, I could have put a word of introduction. I'm not sure we had this website when I wrote the article; at any rate I didn't think of posting it then. Recently, some other conversations on this site reminded me that I had already written a personal overview of movement in this area, and I just wanted to have this piece available on the website. Thanks for your encouragement! Love, Robin Dear Liz,

Yes, I could have put a word of introduction. I’m not sure we had this website when I wrote the article; at any rate I didn’t think of posting it then. Recently, some other conversations on this site reminded me that I had already written a personal overview of movement in this area, and I just wanted to have this piece available on the website. Thanks for your encouragement!

Love,
Robin

]]> By: RichardW http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7179 RichardW Sun, 08 Apr 2007 15:45:49 +0000 http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7179 Hello Robin, I have read your post and found it to be quite interesting. But I must admit that as a theistic Quaker I really don't understand non-Theistic Quakers. They are sort of an enigma to me. As I understand it the Quaker faith is based upon--at least in liberal circles--waiting in silence to listen for God's still small voice. (I say "as I understand it" because I am a relatively new Quaker.) If a Quaker does not believe in God then what is the point of sitting in silence? Whom (or what) are you waiting to hear from? And what is the Inner Light in your opinion? As I said I find non-theism puzzling. (I feel the same way about my Unitarian friends who are secular humanists. I wonder what is their point in going to church.) I mean, if you don't believe in God why bother doing the religious thing at all? I also wonder why non-theists just don't be Buddhists since Buddhism has no real concept of God. Mind you, I am sincere in asking these questions. I am not trying to be flippant. I truly am just curious. Hello Robin, I have read your post and found it to be quite interesting.
But I must admit that as a theistic Quaker I really don’t understand non-Theistic Quakers. They are sort of an enigma to me.
As I understand it the Quaker faith is based upon–at least in liberal circles–waiting in silence to listen for God’s still small voice. (I say “as I understand it” because I am a relatively new Quaker.) If a Quaker does not believe in God then what is the point of sitting in silence? Whom (or what) are you waiting to hear from? And what is the Inner Light in your opinion? As I said I find non-theism puzzling. (I feel the same way about my Unitarian friends who are secular humanists. I wonder what is their point in going to church.) I mean, if you don’t believe in God why bother doing the religious thing at all?
I also wonder why non-theists just don’t be Buddhists since Buddhism has no real concept of God.
Mind you, I am sincere in asking these questions. I am not trying to be flippant.
I truly am just curious.

]]> By: James Riemermann http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7094 James Riemermann Sat, 07 Apr 2007 23:56:40 +0000 http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7094 Liz, Thanks for stopping by. My sense around your last point is that these questions -- "what it means to be Quaker and what it is that binds us together" -- are neither more nor less important because we do not share a belief in a divine principle. My sense is that the meaning of Quakerism, the thing that binds us together, has never been shared belief in a divine principle. At the time of Quakerism's birth, the whole Christian world, as well as the Muslim and Jewish world, shared belief in a divine principle, or something like that. There was nothing particularly distinctive about such belief. The distinctions were elsewhere. Beyond that, I'm not going to say here my sense of what made Quakers Quakers, either then or now, first because I don't think there is any simple or binding answer, and second because I don't find it to be all that important a question, or even helpful. I find that a great focus on determining what makes Quakers distinctive is mostly a hindrance to living in community as Quakers. That question, it seems to me, is essentially about drawing boundaries between us and everyone else, and I think our focus should be about <i>erasing</i> boundaries between human beings. Interestingly, the latter is the aspect of Jesus's ministry that speaks to me most powerfully. There are very good reasons to study the early Quakers, but not in order to determine what kind of Quakers we should be (which is to say, what kind of human beings we should be). We need to figure that out for ourselves, with our hearts, our minds, our brothers, and our sisters. I also think -- and even a cursory reading of Quaker history bears this out -- that the notion of a golden age of Quakerism (or Christianity) when we all walked in unity, is a myth. There was never such an age. Liz,

Thanks for stopping by.

My sense around your last point is that these questions — “what it means to be Quaker and what it is that binds us together” — are neither more nor less important because we do not share a belief in a divine principle. My sense is that the meaning of Quakerism, the thing that binds us together, has never been shared belief in a divine principle. At the time of Quakerism’s birth, the whole Christian world, as well as the Muslim and Jewish world, shared belief in a divine principle, or something like that. There was nothing particularly distinctive about such belief. The distinctions were elsewhere.

Beyond that, I’m not going to say here my sense of what made Quakers Quakers, either then or now, first because I don’t think there is any simple or binding answer, and second because I don’t find it to be all that important a question, or even helpful. I find that a great focus on determining what makes Quakers distinctive is mostly a hindrance to living in community as Quakers. That question, it seems to me, is essentially about drawing boundaries between us and everyone else, and I think our focus should be about erasing boundaries between human beings. Interestingly, the latter is the aspect of Jesus’s ministry that speaks to me most powerfully.

There are very good reasons to study the early Quakers, but not in order to determine what kind of Quakers we should be (which is to say, what kind of human beings we should be). We need to figure that out for ourselves, with our hearts, our minds, our brothers, and our sisters.

I also think — and even a cursory reading of Quaker history bears this out — that the notion of a golden age of Quakerism (or Christianity) when we all walked in unity, is a myth. There was never such an age.

]]> By: Liz Opp http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7090 Liz Opp Sat, 07 Apr 2007 21:53:33 +0000 http://www.nontheistfriends.org/article/reflections-on-a-decade-of-nontheism-workshops/#comment-7090 Hello to Robin A and others... I enjoyed reading the history and positive impact of workshops for nontheist Friends, but I'm confused why this letter from 2005 is reprinted now (30 March 2007). My best guess is because there's been a fair amount of chatter every now and then on Quaker blogs about the "spectrum of belief" that may or may not exist among Friends who are writing about "<a href="http://www.quakerquaker.org/convergent_quakers/" rel="nofollow">convergent Quakerism</a>," but a word of introduction to the reprint would have taken the guesswork out of my own imagination. That said, I do think it's important for Liberal Friends and others to live lovingly into these very big questions about what it means to be Quaker and what it is that binds us together, if we no longer share a belief in a Divine Principle. Blessings, Liz Opp, <a href="http://thegoodraisedup.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">The Good Raised Up</a> Hello to Robin A and others…

I enjoyed reading the history and positive impact of workshops for nontheist Friends, but I’m confused why this letter from 2005 is reprinted now (30 March 2007). My best guess is because there’s been a fair amount of chatter every now and then on Quaker blogs about the “spectrum of belief” that may or may not exist among Friends who are writing about “convergent Quakerism,” but a word of introduction to the reprint would have taken the guesswork out of my own imagination.

That said, I do think it’s important for Liberal Friends and others to live lovingly into these very big questions about what it means to be Quaker and what it is that binds us together, if we no longer share a belief in a Divine Principle.

Blessings,
Liz Opp, The Good Raised Up

]]>